When did you become aware of bin Laden and the threat al-Qaida posed?
Oh, 1997, '98. But of course I'm not in government. But I don't think most people in government were focusing on what's going on in Afghanistan. But now the agencies have done a lot in the 133 days since 9/11 to rebuild an infrastructure to respond to the complaints of Bob Baer and others. We got out of the human intelligence business in the mid-1990s. Baer's criticism is absolutely accurate. The killing of [CIA agent] Mike Spann (during the Mazar-e-Sharif prison uprising) demonstrates how sloppy the clandestine services business had gotten in the last five years.
How is that?
You never, ever, send a clandestine services officer into a situation like that with prisoners, outnumbered. You take the prisoners out to talk to him, and then bring them back. What happened? Thank God he didn't take more Army guys in with him, they'd have been killed.
What do you say to liberal critics who contend the Bush administration didn't do enough to crack down on al-Qaida, particularly on the Saudi support for al-Qaida, given that the Saudis are such close allies of the U.S. as well as the Bush family. You got money for the Contras from the Saudis.
Let's deal realistically about the Saudis. When King Faud had all of his faculties, and was working with President Reagan to help the Nicaraguan resistance, we had very, very amicable relations. (Former Defense Secretary) Cap Weinberger saw to it that the first major military arms sale after the administration got to town was to the Saudis. Now, King Faud is still the titular head, but the people who run the country have very little affection for the United States. The people of Saudi Arabia have been polarized by the acquiescence of Al-Turki and others to the most radical Islamists, and they've put their own regime at great risk.
So you'd agree the Bush administration didn't do enough to get the Saudis to crack down?
I don't know about that. I just know they haven't cracked down. Look at that Saudi cleric on the bin Laden video. Now that guy's clearly a big benefactor of al-Qaida; you can see bin Laden's behavior toward him when he walks in. Well, he's still free, still at large. The Saudis have not cooperated with the financial controls we've tried to put on. The days of Prince Bandar coming down to the White House and offering help are behind us. Why aren't we doing more against the Saudis? You bought gasoline recently?
Yes, prices are going down.
Exactly. But the Saudis are putting themselves at enormous risk by doing this, acquiescing to the most radical elements of their own society.
That brings me to Iran. People forget about the Iran part of Iran-Contra, but you always maintained that you were trying to develop the Reagan administration's ties to moderates in that country. Right now there's a rising call to get tough with Iran -- maybe even make that the next front of the war on terror. William Safire called for that last week in the New York Times.
There is a power struggle going on in Iran, and the moderates are the offspring of the folks I was trying to deal with. I think eventually they're going to take over. There's a lot of goodwill toward Americans among Iranians -- not in the government, but among the people. I think more than half the population is under 25. They have no recollection of Ayatollah Khomeini, the Shah or SAVAK [the Shah's secret police]. They only know what they've experienced, which is hell. Iran is a macrocosm of what the Taliban brought to Afghanistan.
Not quite. It's much better developed, there's still more freedom.
Oh, of course, the country's much richer, the infrastructure's far greater, it's a rich culture and it has resources, oil and the rest of it. But the people of Iran don't particularly care for their government, the government is disaffected with much of the rest of the world and it wouldn't be surprising to see a transition to a much more moderate regime much sooner than we'd see it with Iraq. If that were to happen, then you've got the replacement for Saudi Arabia. If you look at the strategic place of Iran [in the region], the development of the oil fields.
What do you make of people saying now, let's expand the war, not to Iraq -- which I know you've come out against -- but to Iran? And is Israel the chief obstacle to our developing better relations with Iran?
Look, the historic connection between the people of Israel and the Persian people goes back to antiquity.
Yes, but they're not getting along very well right now. Israel's blaming Iran for the weapons shipment to the Palestinian Authority.
Well, the worst thing in the world, not to take on my friend Mr. Safire, but the worst thing in the world would be to start bombing in Iran.
And make a new generation of enemies.
Bingo! Look at all the ferment in Iran, the demonstrations ... You can't underestimate the power of the Revolutionary Guard, and the power of the mullahs. But that power is diminishing. Look at the student riots in Qom. Where they put 80,000 students on the street. That's a sign of the lack of internal control on the part of the Iranian hardcore. And it's the antithesis of what's going on in Saudi Arabia, where the radicals are taking over. The opposite is happening in Iran. We ought to encourage that kind of process, and I don't think we do that with B-2s and B-1s and F-18s; you make it known that we'd like to work with moderates, as George Bush the elder did, and this president has. You say, "We're interested in having a relationship with reasonable people, because one day those reasonable people are going to take over."
Next page: "Weren't the Contras terrorists, according to the prevailing definition?"