On a personal level, how was it dealing with that anthrax letter sent to you -- was it frightening?
Well, I was more worried about the people in my office. Senators don't usually open their mail -- so much comes in there. We've got some awfully good people working in this office, and they often start off in the mailroom, as an entry-level job, and work up to a much better job. These are very talented, highly educated, highly motivated young people. So I was more concerned about them. Obviously, like all Americans, I was shocked about the people who did die because they did come in contact, either directly or indirectly, with the anthrax in the letter to Sen. [Tom] Daschle or the one intended for me. I come from Vermont where these things don't happen. We know each other, everybody's on a first-name basis, everybody's friends and neighbors.
How have you been getting along with your friend the attorney general? That was a bitter confirmation fight in January -- Ashcroft was confirmed 58-42, a close vote considering his status as a former senator. It can't be easy to work together after you opposed his nomination so vociferously.
When the confirmation hearing was over and the attorney general was confirmed I made a point to tell both him and the president, "He's now the attorney general, he got the votes necessary for confirmation, he was sworn in, and as far as I'm concerned he gets a clean slate and we start anew." We worked together on a lot of things as senators -- the E-Privacy Act, encryption technology. . .
Which is interesting, since Ashcroft as a senator leaned toward the privacy side of the privacy vs. national security debate. And as you said, you and he worked to allow American companies to export encryption technology abroad, despite the opposition of many in the law enforcement community, who argued that would hamper their investigations, including those of potential terrorists. Now, of course, the attorney general seems to have assumed a different side in that debate. Do you see this as indicative of hypocrisy or more just a sign of the changed times?
To be fair to John Ashcroft, he would say that he is now attorney general carrying out the directives of the president, which is different than the position he took as an elected senator, when he would carry out the position of his constituency. [Former Michigan Republican Senator, current Energy Secretary] Spence Abraham is also friend of mine. When he came in here he was supportive of completely doing away with the Department of Energy. Now he's the Secretary of Energy. I don't have any problem with that. In one position he was an elected senator, and the people of Michigan could make up their minds if they wanted to vote for or against him. It's another thing when you have the mandate to be Secretary of Energy and you're trying to make sure the department will run the best that it can.
And in fact since Ashcroft's been attorney general I've worked with him on the whole issue of FBI oversight. We used to talk several times a week about that and with the appointment of the new FBI director I told him I intended to begin a series of oversight hearings and he promised me nothing but complete cooperation and I received nothing but that.
But it got contentious recently.
I think we had a strained time during the terrorism legislation. I think he felt that if the administration said "Do it this way," the Congress would simply do it that way. But we wouldn't have done that when he was a member of Congress, we're not going to do it now, and we're not going to do it in the future no matter who the next president is. From his point of view he should be glad we improved it.
Why should he be glad?
Well, suppose we arrested someone under the law as it was originally proposed. They announce we've gotten a highly dangerous terrorist but then the courts have to void any arrest because it was based on a law that's unconstitutional.
As a former prosecutor I can tell you that arresting someone is easy. Making someone convicted, and making sure that conviction is sustained, that's the hard part.
I've heard you say that your job as a prosecutor was the best job you ever had.
No question. If you come into my office today -- my Senate office -- you'll see there's only one thing with my name on it, and that's a plaque up on my door from when I was state's attorney. The only photographs in my office are photographs which I've taken of family or of places in Vermont or around the world, which is no different than it was in my state's attorney office.
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