You've written that you understand why Israel is reluctant to deal with Arafat, that "with this latest intifada marked by massacres of children at pizza parlors, Israelis no longer believe security can be found cheek-by-jowl with an Arafat-led Palestinian state. Who can blame them?"
A good friend of mine, Allan Rifkin, a Jewish fella, says that if he were Israeli he would have voted for [Yitzhak] Rabin, then he would have voted for [Ehud] Barak and then he would have voted for Sharon. I said I would have done the same thing. Look, I understand it. They're blowing up buses. Imagine how we'd react down here if they were blowing up buses or shooting up pizza parlors down the road in Mclean [Va.].
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Most Israelis support a Palestinian state.
That's right; 59 percent of Israelis believe you've got to have it. Though I think they probably have a different idea of what it has to be. To get the Arabs to sign on and recognize Israel, you've got to have something along the lines of what Clinton was putting together and what Barak offered Arafat at Camp David and Taba.
Why didn't Arafat take the deal?
There are a couple reasons why. One, Arafat is not a strong leader. He had not prepared his people for it, and he warned Clinton that the Palestinians were not prepared for it. He said, "If I take that, you'll be coming to my funeral because I'll be assassinated." There were other things they wanted, the right of return and other things.
Did you ever see the movie "Michael Collins"? With that big fella?
Liam Neeson.
Yeah, this was like that movie. Collins went to Churchill and the Brits and he came back with an Irish free state without six northern provinces. And he was assassinated. I think Arafat thought the same thing would happen to him.
But I also think Arafat made a horrible mistake, not going back and saying to his people, "This is the most generous offer we've ever been offered, and though I don't agree with everything in it, Barak's a partner in peace and this is something we should negotiate rapidly." And not reject it outright. I thought Clinton made a mistake calling it a failure. He'd gotten 90 percent there, where no one else had, and he called it a failure. Then Sharon goes marching around at the Temple Mount and the intifada goes off. But [Clinton] was very close to a historic success, even though he didn't succeed. There's blame all around on that, though the least of all to blame is Barak.
And he lost his job.
Well, Rabin lost his life. So did Sadat.
You've expressed concern that Israel wants the U.S. to fight Hamas and Hezbollah. You obviously don't consider them to be direct threats to the U.S.
No, I don't consider them to be direct threats to the U.S. They are terrorist groups, clearly, as was Fatah. But have they committed terrorist attacks on the U.S.? No. So I don't consider them direct threats to the U.S.
Though Hezbollah killed all those American Marines in Lebanon. And Yasser Arafat's Fatah group killed Americans, too.
Yep, he did. Cleo Noel [a U.S. ambassador killed in 1973 in Sudan by Palestinian terrorists] and Adolph Dubs [also a U.S. ambassador, killed in 1973 in Afghanistan when police stormed a room where he was being held by terrorists] were directly killed by Fatah. And there's some evidence that Arafat himself ordered the murders.
Yet you think he should head up the Palestinian state.
The point is, if you want peace between Israel and Palestine you've got to deal with Arafat. Now, I would not have done like Clinton did, inviting him to the White House all those times. But if you want peace you've got to deal with your enemies. Do I agree with those who are unenthusiastic about the character of Mr. Arafat? Yes.
You've got to give Clinton credit there for trying to use his final months trying to stitch together a deal. And Camp David is close to what I think is the only possible just honorable solution. And it could have brought an honorable peace. But I'm not optimistic anymore. I was when Rabin was in charge. But after this second intifada there's just so much hatred on both sides.
Bush had removed himself from the Middle East process, as you would no doubt applaud, but now he's reengaged. Powell gave a strong speech two weeks ago urging both sides to make concessions. It was so strong, in fact, that 89 senators signed a letter to Powell urging him to not pressure Israel to refrain from retaliating against Palestinian violence. And Bush just sent Assistant Secretary of State William Burns and retired Gen. Anthony Zinni on a peace mission to the region. Where do you see this Mideast peace effort going?
My guess is that both Bush and Powell have gotten themselves in front on this, sending Gen. Zinni to the region; they'll soon wake up and come back. The only way this is doable is to lean very heavily on Sharon, to use the leverage of American aid. But those 89 signatures tell me that's not doable. The problem is that Ariel Sharon receives $3 billion in American aid, so he's now the custodian for the American reputation in the Islamic and Arab world. And that's a problem for the U.S. And I don't think the president's going to solve that problem.
In fact, you've proposed that the U.S. pull out completely from the region and no longer give Israel or Egypt the billions in foreign aid both countries receive. The Buchanan doctrine you describe in "A Republic Not an Empire" -- would it be fair to characterize it as a policy where the U.S. would never get involved in military conflicts abroad unless vital U.S. interests were at stake?
That's a simple but fair characterization.
Well, elaborate on it.
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