"Islamism is fascism"

Daniel Pipes says leading American Muslim groups want Islamic law to rule the U.S. -- even if they won't admit it -- and must be carefully watched.

By Eric Boehlert

Nov. 9, 2001 | For Muslims in America, the rhetorical war of words continues to escalate at home. Two weeks after sparring publicly with Jewish advocacy groups over the accurate number of Muslims living in the U.S., the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) Thursday issued a call to stop the "Islamophobic smear campaign" against the American Muslim community and its leaders. CAIR urged journalists and public officials not to "be used as unwitting tools in this campaign or to undermine President Bush's efforts to show that the war on terrorism is not a conflict with Islam."

CAIR angrily pointed to a recent Los Angeles Times article which reported, "Pro-Israel or Jewish organizations such as the Anti-Defamation League, the Jewish Defense League and the Middle East Forum think tank have provided news organizations with reams of critical documentation on Muslim leaders in recent weeks."

And the group singled out Middle East Forum's Daniel Pipes for special scorn, calling Pipes "one of the foremost proponents of the current smear campaign," which has tied CAIR with Islamic radicalism and even violence.

In an interview with Salon, Pipes answers those charges, and warns that many Muslims in America want Islamic law to rule the land.

What's your reaction to CAIR's claims?

My reaction is that CAIR realizes that the obscurity in which it toiled before Sept. 11 has now ended, and the sort of activities it engaged in and could get away with then [has ended]. It acknowledges in this press release, "On an almost daily basis we have been forced to defend our organization," they say.

But they suggest they're having to defend themselves from stereotyping and smearing, not just scrutiny.

It's not stereotyping. There are Muslim organizations I think are great and Muslim organizations I think are terrible. CAIR is the worst. It's the most aggressive, the most extreme. The most destructive. It's not stereotyping. What's the stereotype? It's typical of CAIR that it pleads this sort of discrimination all the time. Instead of standing up and fighting squarely for what it's arguing, it's hiding behind this smear campaign. I'm saying this is a radical organization that does not belong in the mainstream of American life.

So were you disappointed when President Bush met with CAIR in September?

I think that's a mistake, yes.

You wrote of the Muslim population in this country, "A substantial body shares with the suicide hijackers a hatred of the United States." What percentage of Muslims in America would you estimate share that hatred of America?

The numbers are fluid. There have been a number of polls. There's one cited today on National Review Online that shows really quite a substantial proportion feeling alienated from the country. I can't offhand give you numbers. What I can say on the phone is there is a substantial body of people who are not integrated, who do not feel they are American first. The problem is even more acute in Britain, where really it's become a national issue in the last few weeks with British citizens going off to Afghanistan to [support the Taliban and] fight potentially their own nationals.

But we haven't seen that here.

We've seen a little bit of it. Very little. It has not become an issue as it has in Britain.

What's the percentage of American Muslims who want to see the government, as you've said, "brought to its knees"? Would that be at the same level of those here who share bin Laden's hatred for America?

Well, there are different degrees. Some, a small number, actively embrace the bin Laden ideology. But that is very small. There are a large number who feel an alienation from the country.

Do you think CAIR wants to create an Islamic state in America?

Without a doubt.

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