I dated Cindy Sherman ...

The film traces your journey from artist to cable show host to living with Cindy and becoming this kind of art world sidekick. How much did it change your life?

In the movie, I say, "You know my life wasn't like that, and all of a sudden I'm staying in Beverly Hills at the W Hotel." We're in this incredible penthouse suite, and I'm like, Whoa! This is insane. My partner and co-director Tom likes to say that I lost my identity; that's a spin we put out. But it's not that I "lost" my identity. It's just that my identity went into hibernation or was subsumed by this much greater force. That's why I called it "Cindy World." In the old days there were these things called Rolodexes with little cards. Mine had like 10 cards, and hers had 1,000. And, you know, Salman Rushdie would be in hers. Her world was a lot bigger and more powerful than mine.

Your perspective is so personal, and yet there you were with Cindy, who is on a completely different and much more controlled level.

I think "control" is the key term to use. There is so much control that is exercised, not only in her world but in the art world in general. That's why we don't know things about the art world. We don't know that art dealers are paid a 50 percent commission. Nobody in the art world questions that level of a take. They just accept it. And artists are the type of people who don't organize very well. They are all pretty much a bunch of loners just sort of stuck together. The business is strong, and they're afraid of not getting their work seen, of not being able to sell their work.

This film has caused a lot of problems for me and for people in the art world who may have something to do with the film and are worried about what the effect is going to be. I've been excommunicated, basically, from that whole level of the art world.

And Cindy has dissociated herself from the film.

Absolutely. I mean, she produced an edict, a disclaimer that she had nothing to do with the film. And I find it very curious.

She knew it was filming the whole time?

She's involved in it! She was there at the inception. She was very much part of the production. I mean, we can't use her art without permission. She liked the idea. And she went on record in the Financial Times in 2006 -- she talks about the film. She does discuss her ambivalence, but she also says, You know, if there's anybody who can make the film it's going to be Paul. I trust him to make a good film, and I think it's going to be good.

What did she think the film was at that point? Did it change?

No, it didn't change. The thing about the Cindy Sherman thing is, I'm a guest of Cindy Sherman. And what I discovered about that life with her is that I just became a component in that life. I categorically became "the boyfriend." My influence as a partner didn't really extend beyond that. And I'm not satisfied in that position. I don't like to be pigeonholed, and I never sold myself as something else.

I'm being seen as sort of an identity pirate right now. But you know what? I never changed what I was doing. I was that guy, the "Gallery Beat" guy who would say things and ask questions that other people were reticent to ask. I would ask someone like Alex Katz, "What does this mean?" And you know, the guy would look at me cross-eyed, like, "I'd like to bop you one, dude." But regular people should be entitled to understand this contemporary art. That was our whole point. We can show people what's funny, what we think, what's good. I rarely was critical of the art. I was critical of the business.

You finished the initial documentary on Cindy that you did for "Gallery Beat" many years ago, and you continued to film. Her art is all about producing images and alter egos of herself. That must have been incredibly difficult for her -- to cede control over her image to somebody else -- although she comes off very well in the film, really.

I'd say so. Talk about control -- I mean, she literally had a lot of the scenes and clips removed.

So she had final cut?

In effect. I mean we could have defied that, if we'd wanted to. But the point is not defiance. The point is that this is a story, and it took place, and we are who we are. I mean, I think her anger at the film right now is an indicator of her frustration at not having control over this thing. I know there are people who work for her -- the dealers -- who are very much against [the documentary]. They always were. Somehow they've taken it upon themselves to be the guard dogs, the protectors, the spinners.

You interviewed a huge range of art world people and celebrities. Did you end up having to pull people out of the film?

No. We always presented the film accurately in the 10-minute trailer that we had produced and that everyone was aware of. And we actually used the trailer as the infrastructure of the film. We basically just took this 10-minute trailer and we made it bigger. I did a monologue, which essentially laid out the story line, and I tried it on an audience of people I had put together. People loved the story. Essentially it's the same one we have in the movie. We just didn't know what the ending would be.

Toward the end of the film, you talk to a number of other "plus ones" who talk about being partners of celebrities. And then somebody in the film asks you, "What's so terrible about it?"

Yeah, I had said, "I know what it feels like to be a wife that no one pays attention to." Afterwards, I was going, "Why did I say that?? Jesus Christ!"

For centuries women have gotten used to being the second fiddle.

I know. I know what it's like to be second fiddle, and I acknowledge my inferiority to the greater body. But then, I got tired of it. I'm sick of fabulous people. It's just a bunch of gas being blown up everyone's skirt. If Sean Penn doesn't know who you are, he's not going to blow smoke in your face, but I don't have anything to say to him, either.

So you're going to all these events and no one's talking to you, because you're not an art star or a celebrity.

I think the deal here is: Good manners never go out of style. If you have a partner, take care of your partner, you know? That's the story with Elton John and David Furnish. It was just by happenstance that I ended up sitting next to David at one of these big benefit dinners, and we were trading stories about getting shafted, you know? And I said, I'm making this movie, and he was like, I'm there.

So watch out for the place card. Be careful of who you invite. And be conscientious, because it can really bite you in the ass.

Story finder (3 ways to search Salon)

Search terms:

Salon the Web

Salon Directory (browse by topic)